tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post8933499602606368285..comments2024-03-26T10:40:16.250-06:00Comments on Neville-Neville Land: Wayne May and the apostasy of the HeartlandersUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-91914885082191391912023-01-28T10:46:52.430-07:002023-01-28T10:46:52.430-07:00Robert: Thank you for leaving a comment and sharin...Robert: Thank you for leaving a comment and sharing your perspective.<br /><br />I thought your comment was worthy of a longer reply, so I’ve responded to it here:<br /><br />https://www.nevillenevilleland.com/2023/01/why-die-on-this-hill-robert-thornton.htmlPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04120374705032268459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-42869308253602756292023-01-25T05:35:42.169-07:002023-01-25T05:35:42.169-07:00I put my trust in God not men or the philosophies ...I put my trust in God not men or the philosophies of men. I give little credence to those touting the superiority of intellectuals and scholars over prophets and apostles. I flee from those who cast stones from the great and spacious building in order to demonize others for their sincere beliefs. Rather, I trust the Lord and those servants He has called. I don't pretend to know many things, but I do know that the Hill Cumorah is in New York and the "plains of the Nephites" are in the Heartland because that is what the prophet Joseph Smith taught. Yes, I know all the arguments you will trot out to try to invalidate the prophet's words and make him contradict himself, so you can spare me the repeating of them. When evaluating any theory, I don't look at the men promoting it, but for the fruits it produces. I've tasted good fruit as I've learned about some theories and bad fruit as I've learned from others. I honestly don't know why some people are so obsessed with calling this or that believer a deceiver, charlatan, or apostate simply for expressing their beliefs. It stirs up contention and turns those involved into servants of the adversary. I also use my real name when I blog and comment on others' blogs because I am not ashamed of what I believe and I Ihave nothing to hide. I've learned that those who criticize others under an alias are often wearing a costume in order to deceive the elect.Robert Thorntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048003548182328541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-25939967641800822722023-01-02T15:07:26.544-07:002023-01-02T15:07:26.544-07:00Yes, that was Mark E. Petersenʼs belief (and he ca...Yes, that was Mark E. Petersenʼs belief (and he called it his belief) in 1953. This was before over 60 years of increasingly sophisticated research has shown that his belief was not well-founded.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04120374705032268459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-59446712907517867452023-01-02T14:44:06.783-07:002023-01-02T14:44:06.783-07:00An interesting quote. "I do not believe we sh...An interesting quote. "I do not believe we should give credence to the highly speculative theories about Book of Mormon geography. I do not believe that there were two Hill Cumorahs, one in Central America and the other one up in New York, for the convenience of the Prophet Joseph Smith, so that the poor boy would not have to walk clear to Central America to get the gold plates."<br />Mark E. Petersen Conference Reports, April 5, 1953rollerbladzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128752396195976948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-77513015141523265002022-12-24T17:56:58.707-07:002022-12-24T17:56:58.707-07:00Other than that Ramah is the same hill as Cumorah ...Other than that Ramah is the same hill as Cumorah (Ether 15:11), I have no special insights into its location other than what the Book of Mormon itself has to say about it—that it was in the land northward, north of the narrow neck of land, that it was in “a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains,” and so forth. There are some things that can be reasonably inferred from the text—that it offered the Nephites some strategic advantage over the Lamanites (Mormon 6:4) and that it was near the shore of a very large sea (Ether 9:3; 15:8).Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04120374705032268459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-67074795095733881912022-12-23T14:54:37.154-07:002022-12-23T14:54:37.154-07:00Very well. What are your thoughts on the location ...Very well. What are your thoughts on the location of the hill Ramah?rollerbladzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128752396195976948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-16202017079319062002022-12-22T20:13:33.594-07:002022-12-22T20:13:33.594-07:00Lehi and his descendants didn’t have a map of the ...Lehi and his descendants didn’t have a map of the Western Hemisphere. They knew that they had arrived at a new land, but they didn’t know how vast it was. They believed that were “upon an isle of the sea” (2 Nephi 10:20), a portion of which was in the south and another portion in the north, separated by a narrow neck or pass and surrounded on all sides by seas. So, when the authors of the Book of Mormon wrote of “this land,” they were often (but not always) referring to the entire land of promise, which we know from the teachings of modern prophets is the entire North and South American continents.<br /><br />Ether’s record (which was abridged by Moroni) speaks of “this land of promise” “which was choice above all other lands.” It’s in “this land” that the New Jerusalem will be built. (Ether 2:8–9; 9:20; 13:1–10.) From the interpretation given by President Ezra Taft Benson, Elder Mark E. Petersen, and others, “this land” refers to the entire Western Hemisphere, not in the specific land or kingdom where Coriantumr reigned.<br /><br />It’s similar to saying “Washington D.C. is in the United States.” That’s a true statement, but the United States is over 3 million square miles in size, and Washington is in one specific part of of the country. Someone who lives in Los Angeles could rightly say that Washington is in “this land” or “this country,” even though it’s nearly 2,300 miles away.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04120374705032268459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-63260288507788661252022-12-22T15:10:31.946-07:002022-12-22T15:10:31.946-07:00Agreed with your response. And in focusing on the ...Agreed with your response. And in focusing on the "this land" teaching by Ether, who lived in the land over which Coriantumr was king and prophesyed to the understanding of the Jaredites, the location of the New Jerusalem, or Independence Missouri, would be included in the area of Coriantumr's kingdom. Otherwise he would have taught them it was to be in another land.<br /><br />So, what was the approximate size or area of Coriantumr's kingdom? We would need at least one other fixed point to help determine this, correct? What is that fixed point, or points if you're aware of more than one?<br /><br />Note: I'm fully aware of the Church's official stance on this topic, so please know that this discussion has no affect on my testimony. I'm interested in hearing thoughts and opinions other than my own.<br />rollerbladzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128752396195976948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-87931512228511126192022-12-21T20:11:04.435-07:002022-12-21T20:11:04.435-07:00Ether wrote that the New Jerusalem would be built ...Ether wrote that the New Jerusalem would be built upon “this land” (Ether 13:1–13) which was “a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord” (13:2; cf. 2:10, 12).<br /><br />What was the “choice land” referred to in the book of Ether?<br /><br />President Ezra Taft Benson of the Quorum of the Twelve said in in April 1976 General Conference: “America, North and South, is a choice land, a land reserved for God’s own purposes.” He then immediately quoted Ether 2:9, 10, 12 in support of his statement. (https://churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1976/04/the-constitution-a-glorious-standard)<br /><br />Five years earlier, Elder Mark E. Petersen of the Twelve said in April 1971 General Conference that the “choice land” promises of Ether 2:12 referred to “the modern nations of the Americas.” Note the plural 𝐴𝑚𝑒𝑟𝑖𝑐𝑎𝑠, referring to North and South America. (https://churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1971/04/warnings-from-the-past)<br /><br />These statements support the Tenth Article of Faith, which declares that “Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent.”Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04120374705032268459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-31625762749603318402022-12-21T19:54:00.097-07:002022-12-21T19:54:00.097-07:00Thanks, agreed. What did the prophet Ether say to ...Thanks, agreed. What did the prophet Ether say to the Jaredites about New Jerusalem?rollerbladzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128752396195976948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-90100291061666002822022-12-21T12:24:32.180-07:002022-12-21T12:24:32.180-07:00It will be built at Independence, Missouri. D&...It will be built at Independence, Missouri. D&C 84:1–5.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04120374705032268459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-82693115475268437932022-12-21T11:13:16.935-07:002022-12-21T11:13:16.935-07:00Hi Peter, what is the location where the New Jerus...Hi Peter, what is the location where the New Jerusalem will be built? rollerbladzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128752396195976948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-91658651550591242582020-10-29T14:50:38.371-06:002020-10-29T14:50:38.371-06:00“I have never heard the Heartland proponents claim...“I have never heard the Heartland proponents claim that others were in apostasy….”<br /><br />JJ: Please read more on this blog, then. Click the APOSTASY link in the Tags section and see how Jonathan Neville has frequently implied that Church leaders are teaching falsehoods. See how he is setting himself up as the arbiter of the correct way to understand what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery taught. See how he is openly critical of Church museums and visitors centers for not teaching the Heartland theory.<br /><br />Heartlanders are not “the Church.” Finding fault with them is not what Joseph Smith intended by his statement. Finding fault with the Church and its leaders—something Jonathan Neville does continually—is, however.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04120374705032268459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-7577003742693871172020-10-29T14:03:53.548-06:002020-10-29T14:03:53.548-06:00It appears that the quotation you use above:
“Tha...It appears that the quotation you use above:<br /><br />“That man who rises up to condemn others & finding fault with the Church saying that they are out of the way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is in the high road to apostacy & if he does not repent will apostatize as God live[s].”<br /><br />could be applied to the tenor of this article. I have never heard the Heartland proponents claim that others were in apostasy, but this article surely makes the claim against the HeartlandersJJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08212448213328741060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-62785173839644584072020-07-26T15:10:03.769-06:002020-07-26T15:10:03.769-06:00Thanks for leaving a comment, Opie. My response en...Thanks for leaving a comment, Opie. My response ended up being so long and detailed that I turned it into its own post:<br /><br />https://www.nevillenevilleland.com/2020/07/a-response-to-opie-regarding-wayne-may.htmlPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04120374705032268459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-50237380065304556962020-07-26T01:31:34.241-06:002020-07-26T01:31:34.241-06:00I work closely with the LDS members you are judgin...I work closely with the LDS members you are judging and you are bearing false witness. <br />I followed the Mesoamerican Book of Mormon archaeology for 45 years and grew tired of the lack of results that confirmed the Book of Mormon geography. The Heartland model does not demand that we throw Joseph Smith and many others church leaders under the bus. <br /> I do not know of anyone who has lost their testimony because of the Heartland Model, but one of the very prominent believers in Mesoamerica left the church and called the Book of Mormon a fraud (see attached article). Notice in the article in table 1 that the timeline for the Mayan culture does not fit at all within the Book of Mormon timeline. The picture of Christ walking down the stairs of a pagan Mayan temple is impossible since the Mayan buildings were not built until ~800 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you do not believe in the revelation recorded in D&C 125:3, please tells us why the Lord gave Joseph Smith this revelation? Also, please enlighten us as to what you know about Mesoamerican Book of Mormon archaeological findings that Brother Thomas Stuart Ferguson did not know that would have kept him from leaving the church. There is nothing phony here except the millions of dollars Mesoamerican Book of Mormon hoaxers has taken from the church and its members. The events recorded in the Book of Mormon took place in the eastern US and not in Southern Mexico or Guatemala. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/how-mormon-lawyer-transformed-archaeology-mexico-and-ended-losing-his-faithOpiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15705831462262788072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5081650521640947681.post-74690039444239382572020-07-11T18:19:59.270-06:002020-07-11T18:19:59.270-06:00That quote you shared a few posts back seems more ...That quote you shared a few posts back seems more and more applicable:<br /><br />“That man who rises up to condemn others & finding fault with the Church saying that they are out of the way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is in the high road to apostacy & if he does not repent will apostatize as God live[s].”<br /><br />It's one thing to pawn a phony archaeological dig on Latter-day Saints. It adds to May's shame that he insists if you don't help pay for his research-so-called you are under condemnation with the rest of the Church-something that it seems only the Prophet should be able to declare as dictated by the Spirit. <br /><br />Of course, perhaps May and Neville know something we don't about church leaders and go the way of Denver Snuffer and others. Time will tell I am sure. As for me, I'm happy to continue following the prophet and leave Book of Mormon geography outside the articles of faith of the Church.Spencer Kraushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14779082393070350818noreply@blogger.com